Most of you know that we had a bit of a hurricane here last August. (Those of you that don’t should now crawl out from under your rocks and stare, blinking, at the sunlight.) And you are also probably aware that things were mismanaged at every level. In an effort to not put blame on any one person or organization, I tend to take the position that, really, NO ONE could have known exactly what to do when Mother Nature dealt us the worst of blows. It was too much, too quickly, and all of it was compounded by one of the worst traits of human nature: stubbornness. It was a natural disaster, the magnitude of which no one could possibly have been completely prepared for.But some of the problems we have are too big. They are too big for any of us to handle. One of those problems is the indictment of several doctors and nurses who are accused of administering injections to patients too old or too sick or too big to move. And those injections were lethal.
One side says that it was merciful. That those hospital employees could have selfishly left their charges behind, choosing only to save themselves, but instead chose to end the lives of those patients in a much more dignified manner, with much less suffering than they may have endured otherwise.
Another side says that it was murder. That the hospital employees played God. And that those patients did not choose to end their lives at that time; indeed, they had no idea what was happening. Their families were not present.
News reports indicate that there was ten feet of floodwater in the hospital and that the temperatures in the hospital reached in excess of 100 degrees. At least 34 people died.
So what do you think? Did those physicians play God by taking matters into their own hands? Or were they angels of mercy, making those patients’ certain deaths a little less traumatic?
The attorney general in Louisiana has brought charges against one doctor and several nurses. He is turning the matter over to authorities in the jurisdiction where this occurred for prosecution.
Doctors here are speaking out in support of those indicted. The public doesn’t know what to think. The patients’ families have begun preparing lawsuits against the hospital.
So this begs the question: what do you think? Heroic gesture or homicide?
Now. Would your opinion be different if one of those patients was one of your loved ones?
July 24, 2006 at 7:43 am
As much as I would hate to see anyone suffer…There are laws that say doctors and nurses can’t perform assisted suicide, let alone with unwilling/unknowing participants. There was always a possibility of some sort of miracle that would have allowed these people to be saved. I guess we know now that probably would not have happened, and these people would have suffered greatly…But I guess I still have to say the doctors were wrong. But I guess they would have been criticized just the same for leaving them there. It was a no win situation for them, and they tried to make a kind choice, but I think they made the wrong choice.
July 24, 2006 at 8:04 am
If I knew that hospital staff couldn’t get me out and I knew that there was a 95-100% chance that I’d die and would suffer in the process, I’d want that lethal injection.
BUT (and there’s always a but)…. it would have to be my choice. I don’t know anything about this case, so I don’t know if the patients were given a choice. Assisted suicide laws or not (respectfully responding to 3carnations comments), the healthcare staff was being human and not wanting people to suffer.
BUT (here’s another one…) if the patients didn’t have a choice, then they did the wrong thing. Wonderful intentions, but the wrong thing.
It truly was a no-win situation for them. I feel deeply saddened for both the hospital staff and the families of those that were given the injection.
Wow- I feel very grateful that I’ll never (I hope) be put in a situation such as this. It’s a very VERY gray area for me.
July 24, 2006 at 8:26 am
Heroes. I’m one of the few right-wingers who is in complete support of Euthanasia. I understand what they did was illegal – but I think it was the most compassionate thing for them to do given the situation in which they found themselves.
That being said, yes it was illegal – but I sure as hell wish it weren’t. If it were one of my family members I would thank the doctors. I wish there was something we could have done for my grandmother who passed away in December… but we had to watch her deteriorate into a state of unconsciousness while her body held on for 3 years, drooling and virtually brain dead.
I’m just glad that my brothers and I have a pact that if one of us ever start to get to that point, we’re going on a “vacation” to Mexico.
July 24, 2006 at 9:31 am
I think that there’s a little of both involved there. One part playing God, saying that this person is too sick, too old, too whatever and they’re probably not going to survive anyway so why waste time and resources moving them? Another part that was playing the Angel of Mercy. Thinking that rather than let them suffer through Katrina and then have to live through the aftermath, they [the medicals] would just end the suffering.
I suppose it probably has to do with intent. Did they do it as a way of being merciful, or did they do it as a way of saving their own asses?
Naturally though, if it had been one of my family, I’d say fry ‘em and be done with it. But I’m hypocritical like that.
July 24, 2006 at 10:38 am
There was no God-playing, IMHO. People who think these doctors were just murdering people have never seen anyone die from disease. Its a slow, excruiating process. Its 100 degrees in the hospital. The hospital has very likely run out of pain meds you might need. You already know you are not going to get better. Doctors and nurses are stretched thin….they have no time to tend to you one-on-one as one of the greatest crises to face the continental US is going on all around them and those injured need attention NOW. So you lay there in your own %&%$ and suffer. Right.
Put me out of my misery, please.
July 24, 2006 at 12:36 pm
I think that taking the life of another in any form is murder. But I think the fact that they thought they were helping should be taken into consideration. If there was no chance that my family member would survive, I would maybe be more understanding. But I don’t think anyone has the right to make that decision for someone else.
If I were the one in that hospital bed, though, maybe I would feel differently.
July 24, 2006 at 1:25 pm
i am in favor of assisted suicide for the terminally ill.
but i don’t know what to think about what happened in the wake of katrina. and i am very glad that i am not in a position to have to decide what should happen to those charged.
July 24, 2006 at 1:59 pm
I am quite unsure of the situation back there when Katrina hit the land, but generally speaking, I’m for eutanazia as well.
And like Adam (uberGod) who wrote about his grandmother, I experienced almost the same, only it was my grandfather and it lasted 7 years. For everyone I love I wish for a kind of sudden, but most of all, quiet, peaceful and dignified death.
July 24, 2006 at 3:44 pm
i think that they were merciful. let’s see, which way would i rather go – or would i rather have my grandmother go…drowning or cooking to death, or having a lethal injection? i’d take the lethal injection. and how do we know that the docs and nurses didn’t first talk to these patients? at least some of them may have. and given the alternative, perhaps the patients said “let me go now, and thank you.”
and, i’m here from michele’s
July 24, 2006 at 5:46 pm
Hmmm, to give an injection to someone who is clingin by the very last threads to life isn’t as uncommon as we might think….and is merciful. However to do so to someone who is simply “too big” to move is unconscionable, in my opinion, unless they agreed to it based on their limited options.
I swing to the heroes side on this one, and hope to God someone is a hero for me like this, and can be, should I ever need them to be. I’d not like to live someplace that puts litigation ahead of mercy or common sense.
July 24, 2006 at 5:46 pm
Oh, man. What a horrifying choice! I am saddened for those who died, yet more saddened for those who had to make that choice. If it was my family, ugh. I really don’t know.
July 24, 2006 at 8:31 pm
You know I lived 15 years in Biloxi, so I’m totally familiar with the hurricane nightmares. I don’t know what the answer is…but if it were me and I had the choice, I’d prefer to go with a lethal injection than drown in the hurricane helpless. Of course, they didn’t ask…they just decided and I think that’s where the big mistake was made.
July 25, 2006 at 12:05 am
The families lining up for a lawsuit shows what they thought of their loved ones hospitialized. If indeed the doctor and nurses did what they are accused of they showed more compassion. No, my opinion would not be any different if it was a loved one or me. God help us when we have to make these kinds of decisions.
July 25, 2006 at 6:37 am
The reports of the homes leaving the elderly to drown were far more upsetting. I mean to live so long and die in terror and confusion and the cold dark waters. If they knew they couldn’t save me and I was very old and feeble and confused I believe I would rather die peacefully in dignity and painless.
So often I wonder how we mercifully kill pets that are suffering but cannot do the same for mankind. I saw things in the nursing home visiting my grandmother that made me beg God to please let me not live that long to suffer like that. I know it is a hot topic but it seems we play God in all other areas now and honestly if in fact there was NO EASY WAY to save those people…I mean a 98 chance of death then I think they did what I would have rather had done to me or my loved one. Certainly better than leaving them to die by drowning.
July 25, 2006 at 8:19 am
Probably a little of both. I can say that if it were me and I knew there was no way I could be rescued, a quick painless death would be preferable to a slow and terrifying one.
…I think, though, that it should have been the choice of the patients. To what extent it was, I do not know (I know very little about this situation, honestly.) Either way, it was a horrible situation and a horrible choice that needed making.
(Does it make me a horrible person if mostly, what I think about this situation is “God, I hope I never have to make a choice like that?” The idea is totally terrifying.)
July 25, 2006 at 8:41 am
In a society which says that killing unborn babies is okay, killing old, sick people – especially “those too big to be moved” (!) – is no surprise.
You can be sure that their final Medicare bills were sent to Uncle Sam first, of course, including the cost of the lethal injection.
July 25, 2006 at 11:17 am
As you describe, I would have to go with “heroic gesture.” They made a tough call and did the right thing at great peril to their reputations and liberty. Under those conditions, I would have approved that being done to either of my parents — after having spoken to the persons responsible and got satisfaction from hearing their side of the story.
July 25, 2006 at 12:02 pm
Leave it to wordnerd to pose a question that requires me to actually think.
I think there is no right answer and they did what they thought they had to do.
From my own personal situation in which I have medical power of attorney for my parents (one of which has a terminal disease)making a life or death decision does not come lightly or easily or without demons. I imagine that those involved probably wrestle with the decision every day and I hope that whatever the outcome they they one day have peace.
July 25, 2006 at 4:23 pm
Came by way of Michele. Great post and question. I agree with euthanasia when the patient or the patient’s family makes the choice, but I don’t agree that it was the medical staff’s right to do so.
July 26, 2006 at 6:23 am
First, I don’t think it’s been proven that the doctor on duty in LA actually did commit these crimes, mercy or not. It’s sad that even if she is found innocent, she’ll never be able to find a decent job again, and from all reports, she is an incredibly talented physician.
But one thing I think is impossible to understand unless you were actually there, is the frame of mind of the people in that hospital. We’ve already seen that people went a little crazy in New Orleans, in the AstroDome, where there was raping, looting, death. People were burning their city, shooting their neighbors, frightened, wild with days’ worth of adrenaline and hunger and loss. The hospital, a place where people usually go for help, was unable to administer it. They didn’t have power. The floors were flooded, the windows blown out. Why, when everyone else was going mad, do we expect that this doctor and the two nurses assisting her were any more rational than anyone else? How would you feel if your patients, the types of people you had been treating for years and had trained with the intent of helping them, were begging for relief and you couldn’t offer them anything? Maybe she was offering them the only relief available. I don’t pretend that it was the right answer. But if I think really hard about what it must have been like in those rooms, the stink and sweat and fear and pain and crying and darkness, it takes me to a place I don’t want to go.
July 31, 2006 at 1:30 pm
I think this falls into the whole greay area we’ll the “Combat clause” meaning; if you werent there, and you dont know the circumstances, you cannot -and do not have- the right to decide what happened, and what should happen to the people involved.
Not to be cavalier about it, but this whole scenario reminds me time and time again of a scene from “Collateral”:
Vincent: Max, six billion people on the planet, you’re getting bent out of shape cause of one fat guy.
Max: Well, who was he?
Vincent: What do you care? Have you ever heard of Rwanda?
Max: Yes, I know Rwanda.
Vincent: Well, tens of thousands killed before sundown. Nobody’s killed people that fast since Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Did you bat an eye, Max?
Max: What?
Vincent: Did you join Amnesty International, Oxfam, Save the Whales, Greenpeace, or something? No. I off one fat Angelino and you throw a hissy fit.
Max: Man, I don’t know any Rwandans.
Vincent: You don’t know the guy in the trunk, either.
I wonder if the people who are so concerned about these allegations have actually done anything for those who actually lived thru Katrina and are still trying to recover?
Moreover, 50 people died in an Israeli rocket attack this morning, the BBC reported that 40 of them were children under the age of 12. So where is the compassion for them from these people so concerned about what may or may not have happened? Where is the outrage over this?